Paul Ciampoli
Welcome to the latest episode of Public Power Now.
I'm Paul Ciampoli, news director for APPA.
Our guest on this episode is Michael Ball, CEO of the Electricity Information Sharing and Analysis Center.
The cyber and physical security threat environment remains top of mind for the utility sector, and it is challenging at times for utilities to stay on top of the myriad number of threats and tools available to help defend against those threats.
So Michael is here to take a deep dive into the latest threats and mitigation strategies.
Michael, thanks for joining us.
Michael Ball
Thank you, Paul. Really appreciate the opportunity to be here and look forward to the discussion today.
Paul Ciampoli
Sure thing.
So my guess is that probably a majority of our members are aware of E-ISAC, even maybe at a generalized level.
But for listeners who may not be familiar with the organization, what is its mission and what role does it play in terms of supporting the North American electricity sector.
Michael Ball
The EISAC or Electricity Information Sharing and Analysis Center is really a focal point for our sectors information sharing and analysis is part of that construct.
And in fact, the electricity ISAC is not the only ISAC. There are ISACs actually throughout different sectors and it is part of an ecosystem of even information sharing amongst the different sectors.
But we really focus in on sharing information bi-directionally with our asset owners and operators and really focus on being able to take this information and translate that intelligence into practical action. So essentially give actionable insights.
And we want to do that very quickly because there's obviously the speed in which events and threats emerge it's just amplifying.
So we bring together about 2,000 organizations across North America and we actually do also work internationally and we look at resilience around threats as a real team sport.
It's a part of a community that we are very focused on trying to continue to cultivate.
Paul Ciampoli
And you mentioned different sectors and I think that's good that you pointed that out in terms of giving our listeners some context.
So for example, would natural gas be another sector where a similar organization’s set up?
Michael Ball
That's correct. In fact, we work very closely with the downstream natural gas sector, the oil and gas, ISAC.
So essentially another operating model and we share very openly and oftentimes because of that adjacency, that relationship between these industries, that's particularly important as is with the financial sector and telecommunications, for example.
Paul Ciampoli
So just kind of drilling down in terms of our audience, which is primarily public power utilities.
So public power utilities range from very small systems to some of the largest utilities in the country.
So could you tell our listeners how E-ISAC helps organizations of different sizes improve their security posture?
Michael Ball
Thank you because the reality is the range of utilities across North America are from the very smallest to some of the largest entities and anywhere in between and we recognize public power has that level of complexity to the size and geography and we recognize that every utility is different.
And yet everyone plays an important role in the overall reliability of the grid.
Smaller utilities often need practical, more scalable solutions rather than large security teams.
And so we want to tailor that information and various services and products that we provide to actually appeal to each of those different audiences.
So that is an ongoing effort on our part and to continually improve because we recognize that our industry has different levels of maturity, different level size and complexity and different resources.
And so we try to work across all of them.
Paul Ciampoli
And I would imagine that, within public power, for example, I think it's fair to say that public power utilities do a great job in terms of information sharing and advice on strategy.
So I'd imagine that that's applicable with respect to security issues.
Michael Ball
Absolutely. And in fact, the ability, the culture of information sharing, regardless of size, we get a lot of good telemetry out there and gives us some unique insights when we look at it kind of holistically, which is part of that overall value proposition.
So we really value the engagement with every single entity regardless of size. And that's an important part of the construct.
Paul Ciampoli
So when a public power utility joins E-ISAC, what are some of the most valuable services or resources they gain access to immediately?
Michael Ball
Well, you know, right away getting access to the portal and actually our portal, which is actually an important part of the information sharing platform that you get right away access to either historical and real time information sharing that we provide out.
You also are tapping into a 24-7 operation, whether it is just an average day that we are continuing to drive and operate our systems, or when there's a really significant event unfolding, a cyber physical event that we need to be mindful of as an industry… and this really kind of struck me as how much of a community that is created with participants that learn from one another. And so I think that is really important.
The other thing is you get more insights into programs that we actually operate, whether it's weekly intelligence products that we send out tailored towards the audience, it depends on the size of the organization.
We actually coordinate GridSecCon, which is a large community conference that we put together every year, brings together a lot of professionals. And it's a great opportunity to learn from one another.
And then of course, we do want to drive exercises and resiliency through GridEx. It's another big thing. So again, you start tapping into an apparatus.
It's really trying to provide opportunities for folks to not only come together, but to learn.
Paul Ciampoli
And a couple of quick follow-up questions.
The portal you mentioned -- so E-ISAC has a public facing website and for our listeners who want to follow up in terms of additional information, they could obviously just Google EISAC and find that additional information in terms of potentially joining.
Michael Ball
Absolutely. There's a lot of information there to get you started. It's a great way to connect.
We also have a LinkedIn account that's actually relatively new. It's another way to get some insights into some of the activities that we're doing and how we reach out to a variety of different organizations and groups.
Paul Ciampoli
And the GridSecCon you mentioned, has that already happened this year or is it upcoming?
Michael Ball
It's upcoming. So we have it every year right in October. This one will be down in Florida. And again, there is information out there if you want to look it up.
Paul Ciampoli
As you know, many utilities know E-ISAC for threat intelligence. So could you kind of drill down in terms of what that looks like in practice and how utility personnel use that information on a daily basis?
Michael Ball
When you're plugged into the portal and you're able to receive updates, a lot of that comes from a continuous conversation that is happening between our industry.
Practitioners that may share information, we may actually start to get information that is shared with us from multiple sources.
It starts to build a bigger view and a pattern. And we, of course, then, you know, conduct the analysis, get that back out.
So it's a really important apparatus for just kind of staying in tune with things that are emerging.
I think the other thing that, with members that participate, not only receiving and contributing insights, but some of the products and services we provide start to answer some of the questions that a lot of the executives are asking.
So we've found that if you’ve got a board or executives are asking what's, around a particular topic, oftentimes we have a product that can help support that dialogue that's happening within an organization.
So there's also direct sharing -- things where we actually look for internet exposed systems that may be particularly vulnerable that we can see we'll notify members. So that direct sharing is very important.
And we'll do things like all points bulletins and things like that when there's something really emerging. So anyway, hopefully that gives you a little bit of insight.
Paul Ciampoli
And obviously it goes without saying speed is of the essence when something like that crops up. I'm sure it's safe to say that you guys are cognizant of that in terms of the need for speed.
Michael Ball
And thank you for that point because, you know, our goal is to provide timely and actionable information. And so timely is something that's relative and the speed in which we're seeing things today, it's only getting faster.
Paul Ciampoli
So information sharing is one of those concepts everyone agrees is important, but not everyone understands. So why is information sharing so critical for the electric sector specifically?
Michael Ball
Well, certainly one of the things is that events don't necessarily happen in isolation.
And what we think is what's really important is that we build a community that's built on a foundation of trust. That's an important part of it.
That information is shared, being able to do so anonymously, or with more detail, we can ensure that gets out. And members control what's shared and how it's shared and then we have a strong governance around that.
So what we're really trying to do is making sure that apparatus of information sharing, collection of data, because we don't really have the luxury of being able to work within a silo.
I think we've learned that over the years, that it's really essential that we be able to hear what's happening on the ground.
Sometimes when we see events start to unfold, it actually is within a particular utility or set of utilities. And our ability to respond en masse is going to be a part of that information sharing, enabling others to read and react at the same time.
Paul Ciampoli
I just wanted to get your thoughts in terms of what are our details in terms of what are some of the safeguards E-ISAC has in place to make utilities more comfortable in terms of sharing sensitive security information, especially after an incident or suspicious event.
Michael Ball
I think it's a great question.
It kind of really touches on some of the points I was making is that, again, it starts with building a information sharing mechanism that's built on trust.
And what we want to make sure is that if there is information shared with the ISAC, subsequently something we can collectively collect and share outwards, it is actually in the hands of the reporter, the member that's reporting the incident.
So they can determine how much detail is in there, who it is shared with, whether their name can be associated with it.
This is a level of detail that we enable for that reporting service so essentially you can be quite anonymous in that.
Because what's more important is that something is happening that everybody should be worried about. And that's what we want to get out. So I think that's one of the big things.
There's also -- sometimes it comes up because we're also part of the North American Electric Reliability Corporation, which is also where standards come out, audits and things like that is a separate part of the organization.
So one of the things I want to highlight there is that if a member is worried about sharing information that might get over to a NERC organization and the audit process there, we actually have a code of conduct. We don't share. Their systems aren't shared.
This information sharing system is not shared with NERC.
So that is also a safeguard we keep deeply in place in this foundation of the work we do.
But I think that's important to talk about because we work very hard to ensure that integrity and this sharing is creating a safe environment to share.
And we have seen year on year success and just continue to grow in that way.
Paul Ciampoli
And I would imagine that in terms of allaying concerns that I touched upon, you know, E-ISAC has obviously built up a very strong reputation in terms of keeping information confidential.
So, you know, utility X is thinking about EISAC and potentially joining that strong track record goes a long way in terms of allaying concerns.
Michael Ball
Well, it certainly does.
I think that this is always an arena where you are earning trust every day. We certainly, as you say, have come a long way in developing, but we must maintain that in everything we do.
So it is deeply woven into the fabric of the way we operate, we utilize traffic light protocols, which essentially is a classification system that manages the distribution of that information.
But at the end of the day, our balancing act is building a trusted community that can share -- being able to get it collated and shared back out in actionable ways and in a way that feels safe in doing that kind of reporting because that's -- essentially we thrive when we can share information with each other and we have the ability to share events as they're unfolding, not after they're done.
Paul Ciampoli
And so what kinds of information are most valuable for utilities to share? Indicators of compromise, suspicious activity, lessons learned, physical security incidents, something else?
I just wanted to give you an opportunity to provide some additional insight on that topic.
Michael Ball
Yeah, that's a great question because we want to encourage information sharing, but physical security incidents that have occurred are good examples.
One of the things we're able to see for even just copper theft, where it's almost a ubiquitous threat in our industry, we start to see patterns and we start to learn from even those types of events.
Suspicious activity, things that may be precursor to something or folks need to keep an eye out. It's kind of like a neighborhood watch principle. I saw something suspicious. I want to let others know.
And we really strive to be one of the vehicles by which that can occur. I think that's really important.
It's valuable to learn about incidents as they're starting to happen. So if even a cyber incident, we do worry about that with a variety of different scenarios that do occur out there any given day.
As we start to understand that we can start to share, here's a unique tactic or technique and procedure that may be used that you keep an alert on or create a countermeasure.
So those TTPs, as you mentioned, are a very valuable tool because we can provide recommendations or insights into ways to counteract that. So that becomes very important.
And we even have sharing where some have provided bulk sharing where we've been able to help partner with a utility to provide more deep analysis and recommendations that kind of focus investments and things like that.
Paul Ciampoli
I could see a scenario where you guys potentially get really overwhelmed with threat reporting and incident reporting, but I would imagine, I mean, is it safe to say that there's a when in doubt, report it kind of mentality, like especially in the age of where things are constantly evolving in terms of the threat matrix.
Is it E-ISAC's feeling that you want to know as much as possible as opposed to kind of making the utility decide whether it's important or not?
Michael Ball
Absolutely. I think that's a really valid point because this kind of gets into that culture of see something, say something, we want to hear about it. You know, we can absorb large amounts of data and reports. And you know, the key being able to kind of duplicate that, see through that.
But I would much rather create actionable information based on what we have visibility to what's reported versus not, right? I mean, that is an important channel of information sharing is those reports. So the more the better as far as I'm concerned. Now, there is a limit.
If we push a bunch of data out, there's also a thing called alert fatigue. So we have to be mindful of that. That is probably the one thing we have to manage carefully against.
But at the same time, we thrive because of information that we can gather from a wide variety of sources, including our members.
Paul Ciampoli
And just real quick, so you mentioned the acronym TTP, that's tactics, techniques and procedures, right?
Michael Ball
That is correct, yes. And that's oftentimes the way to look at different ways in which those attackers are trying to get in and get access.
Paul Ciampoli
Michael, for my last set of questions, I wanted to focus on emerging threats and kind of looking ahead.
And so against that backdrop, what trends are you seeing today that utility leaders should be paying closer attention to over the next few years?
Michael Ball
I think we're seeing it from a lot of different angles, frankly. What we're seeing though is threats are becoming more interconnected.
There used to be this vast separation between nation state threat actors and these well-funded, deeply funded capabilities and mission-driven work activities to criminal organizations are trying to monetize some sort of cyber event to, down to like what we used to call skip this script kiddies that, young, aspiring, cyber active folks would just do stuff that just see what they could do, right?
Obviously, the criminal aspect of cyber activity is thriving. I mean, when you look at the ecosystem around something as simple as ransomware, it's far from simple.
It's actually a very complex apparatus where maybe someone may get access into an environment, they'll actually sell that in the black market and to an attacker that then wants to use that.
We see ransomware as a service. So you used to have to be really skilled. Well, now you can buy toolkits to do it, so that criminals are getting more advanced.
You know, certainly we absolutely see that the nation state threat actors, you know, Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, we see tremendous geopolitical activity that creates an increased risk arena around cyber attacks, whether it's folks that are ideologically motivated around a geopolitical perspective. And we certainly can see that.
And we certainly worry about the very significant, focused attacks that we worry about with China and their growing capabilities there.
But the fact is, that they're all starting to also get increased capabilities just from tool sets that are artificial intelligence, AI enabled criminals.
And so what we see is that's probably one of the bigger threat areas.
There are some interesting and novel aspects that AI and autonomous attack scenarios might provide utilizing that technology. It's just the speed at which you can do, the speed at which a vulnerability can be discovered, a speed at which not only a vulnerability can be discovered, but an exploit can be built to try to compromise it. So the attack can come very fast and rapid fire.
That doesn't mean that good controls, good practices, don't help you to be resilient against those. But those become even more important in a world where we see AI-enabled threat actors, we have to read and react quicker, and it's an underscore, and I can't emphasize enough, the ability to share information rapidly allows us to move more quickly as well.
Paul Ciampoli
And even if you're a well-sized utility, just in general, not necessarily public power specifically, and you have staff dedicated to cybersecurity. I think everything you just said kind of points to the importance and significance of E-ISAC in terms of being able to collate information and prioritize what are kind of the immediate threats.
Michael Ball
Absolutely, absolutely. We work really hard. I think, you know, if I could just really foot stomp that point, which is, you know,
The E-ISAC or any ISAC is not the only source of information sharing. We're part of an apparatus and ecosystem of information sharing, but we're very focused on the resiliency of the North American grid.
And, the fact is that information sharing, our ability to collate and move quickly, gives us the ability to get information out. And it doesn't matter the size of the organization. And I say that is because we try to be attuned to the fact that, there are different resource constraints within our industry. So we need to get it out in actionable ways, but something that can be picked up and utilized by any entity.
Paul Ciampoli
And so would you say threats to US electric utilities are primarily coming from nation state actors, which you just mentioned, cyber criminals, state affiliated actors, or some combination thereof, who I guess to your point about everything kind of being more interconnected, you may have, you know, answered that question, but if you have anything further on that.
And also, does the E-ISAC recommend any best practices for managing ongoing and emerging threats?
Michael Ball
While we see nation state threat actors are absolutely a concern, I think the most prolific threat is actually criminal organizations. Some sort of compromise and not even just a cyber attack where they're getting in and compromising systems, but social engineering.
And one of the things that we see right now is a real, and we've seen it over the last number of years, a real uptick in the focus on compromising a third party that we do business with.
So utilities do business with a lot of different third parties, engineering firms, what have you. These are kind of pseudo-trusted partnerships. So what they'll do is they'll get in to do what we call accounts payable fraud technique where they will actually get a third party into their, the criminals will get in their email systems, will then actually start to resurrect a transaction history or an invoice. And some of these bills are big and they try to get injected an emergency payment or an urgent payment.
And unfortunately, sometimes they're successful, but it's just typical social engineering, phishing kinds of threats that we see every day. And it's prolific. It's quite prevalent.
Paul Ciampoli
Yeah, to your point, you know, criminal organizations are top of mind now, but as we've discussed, obviously, you have to keep an eye on nation states.
And so against that backdrop, in the news, obviously we're seeing the conflict in the Middle East and Russia and Ukraine, and there are a lot of geopolitical tensions across the globe right now. So can you talk about how these events influence E-ISAC efforts and if there are any related resources you've developed to help utilities?
Michael Ball
Yeah, one of the things I think this -- even as I focus on the criminal element -- the nation state threat actors are active. And, I mean, even if you look into the space of public power, not too terribly long ago, Littleton saw an incident attributed to Chinese threat actors, Volt Typhoon.
And the thing is there is the first reaction I think many folks may do is that, well, we're small, we're not going to be that impactful. But nation state threat actors are in fact seeking ways to get in and understand all their environments. And so our ability to understand what's happened and be able to share that information as we partner with, not only our government partners and intel community, but also what we are shared from our industry. We're also looking overseas. So I'll give you an example. And I referenced China. China is very sophisticated, very capable.
We also see, you know, Ukraine and Russia. So we see activity in Europe. You know, obviously the Iranian, you know, what was happening in Iran right now, you know, there was a lot of concern that there's going to be a reaction from some capable pro-Iranian groups.
And so far it's been relatively quiet, not completely, but relatively quiet. The reason why this is important…how we get value out of understanding what's going on there is we, you know, there are techniques and there are attack techniques that are being utilized in those theaters that we don't see in North America.
But that doesn't mean those tools couldn't be used to focus on North American assets. So we want to learn early from some of the things that are emerging, the novel techniques, and we want to be able to share that out with our member companies so that at the end of the day, what we're learning, even our international engagements with the other information sharing sources in Asia or Europe, we will have better insights into growing and more novel techniques. So it becomes important for us again to underscore what we learned from that.
We can put actionable insights together and share that out to our members who can then apply those principles and lessons and actionable insights in a way that can help them be more resilient.
Paul Ciampoli
I just wanted to kind of broaden the lens here a little bit and give you a chance to talk about how the information sharing environment has changed over the past decade and where do you see it evolving next?
Michael Ball
Yeah, well, certainly, a decade, it's amazing what could happen. And I've seen a significant shift in the types of reporting. I think one of the things that I would say is the individual reports are becoming really valuable.
It's when we're looking at scale and the amount of data. I think what's changing is the trusted information sharing environment, and it continues to grow, this awakening that information sharing is an important part of the apparatus of being alert as an entity.
But what I'm seeing now is the emergence of more capable analytic tools and the ability to look at patterns is going to be an important part of our growth. So what I've seen is the volume of growth, the ability to mine different sorts of information.
The tools that are available to us, so we in the ISAC use a variety of tools that help us visualize what's going out in the environment. Well, that visualization is becoming more enriched in terms of details. Speed in which it occurs is certainly faster.
So I think that over the last decade and into the next one, we're going to see this evolution of the amount of data that's starting to be shared and visualized and actionable insights that come out of that. And the speed in which that occurs has to continue to evolve. And that's not only what I've seen, but that's also what I expect leaning forward as well.
Paul Ciampoli
So if you could give one piece of advice to a small or mid-sized public power utility that wants to become more engaged in terms of security information sharing, what would it be?
Michael Ball
First of all, if you're not part of the E-ISAC member community, feel free to please come and try to see us, you know, take a look at the LinkedIn website for the E-ISAC for some of the social media posts that we do.
But I think what I would say is, first of all, is don't get overwhelmed by this need to fix everything. I think what's really important for the small and medium utilities is to build this culture of readiness that's not just a security team or a person that's running some of the IT operation, but to build it into the culture.
And rather than try to plug every single hole, [utilize] some good principles around managing your information and how accessible assets are on your network to the internet, for example, being able to really just take some basic principles, but build into this culture the access to resources that we might provide at E-ISAC.
And again, we're not the only source, but we do provide a lot of good information. And a good example is some of the products we provide.
If you're getting plugged in, you'll get a weekly update that's more tailored towards small and mediums, it's more actionable. And you don't have to have this massive tool set from a security perspective, just good practices, and then a way to build a resilient organization. And I'll say one last thing with that, which is, as we focus on, you know, really it's about readiness and the ability to navigate through a compromise.
And so an organization can be very well positioned. I put a lot of stock in our industry because we are good at mobilizing around a crisis. We all, doesn't matter what size of the organization, we're all really good. And we also share resources. We have mutual assistance, mutual material aid. You know, we're good around major storm outages and things like that. We can also do the same thing around major threats with security and physical and cybersecurity as well.
And that exercising, testing and building your capabilities, you can do simple tabletops. We offer packages around our GridEx that, you know, it's kind of a GridEx in a box, so to speak. Those are tools that you can use in very simple and accessible ways without having to have a huge group of resources that do it. Sometimes you spin up an exercise in a day, for example, with some of the tabletop tools.
So again, this is what I think we can, we can do our part to help our industry to be more resilient. And it is our tools and the information and that participation and the community. It is the community that helps us to be more resilient overall.
Paul Ciampoli
You mentioned GridEx a couple of times.
Again, I'm sure probably a lot of listeners are aware of that, but for those who are not, could you just provide a brief summary of what that is? And I think that's every two years, right?
Michael Ball
GridEx is…we take a very low likelihood, but very high impact scenario. It's oftentimes pretty complex. And we do this every other year and we do it in two layers. One is we do what’s called a distributed play where we invite our industry to, you know, gather around a particular scenario that's unfolding and then to personalize it.
Most events, even if we saw a nationwide series of attacks, the impacts are local. At every utility that's impacted by some sort of an attack, you're going to have to work with local law enforcement, work with local emergency management authorities. GridEx distributed play creates that venue by which you can invite your key local stakeholders together to work through a scenario.
And a lot of our utilities -- not just GridEx -- we know there are other types of exercises that are conducted. But it is the exercise itself that becomes so important. So that's distributed play.
The other is the executive tabletop. We're actually bringing together, and it's wrapped around what is called the Electric Sector Subsector Coordinating Council, or ESCC, is leaders…it brings together our government leadership, government, industry and our private sector industry representing big IOUs to public power and certainly municipals and cooperatives.
All of that comes together, even looking at like what are the national implications of this scenario? And so this is a very closed meeting, but it allows us to explore what are things that we can do at a national level, things that could help us be more resilient around a scenario like that? And we want to test whether it's in distributed play or it's at an executive table. We want to actually kind of test assumptions to a point of failure, because in that point of failure is where you learn the real, the deepest lessons. And so we want to be able to take that.
Every other year is that actually the actionable items, particularly at our government level, takes a lot of coordination. We want to see improvement.
And by the time of the next exercise, we should be building off a platform that's much higher in terms of capability. That's what every other year is where we're doing that, so it's a great opportunity.
And I'll just plug one last thing. We recognize, you know, I've been in environments where you have like big teams that put together these big elaborate functional exercises. But my point on the products we provide, we actually, you can play full scale, but you also, we have a GridEx in a box or a GridEx tabletop, which are much more accessible.
It kind of brings it down to a more, just usable and more nimble that we saw tremendous, tremendous feedback on the value of just trying to simplify it down a little bit. And so that's what we try to appeal to all audiences with the tools and the scope of the exercise. Hope that helps a little bit.
Paul Ciampoli
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things, you know, we've covered activity related to GridEx in our newsletter the last several years.
And one of the things that I think is nice about the overall approach is you also have a lessons learned report, right? So it's not just the exercise itself, which you make available. So just wanted to mention that to our listeners.
So Michael, thanks again for taking the time to speak with us today.
And I wanted to provide kind of a wrap-up question for you. And that is, if listeners remember only one thing from today's conversation about E-ISAC and information sharing, what would you want that message to be?
Michael Ball
I think this is a really great question. I think the most important things are that cybersecurity and physical security is not like a competitive advantage with an organization.
It's a really shared responsibility we share across our industry. Every organization that shares information really is strengthening the resilience of the entire North American electric grid. So everything I talked about today boils down to being able to share timely and actionable information.
And we will be more resilient by that. So please engage. If you're not already engaged, we really celebrate the folks that are really active parts of the community. And you can just join. There doesn't cost you anything. If you're an electric utility from an ISAC perspective, you can join.
And so please be part of that community. Also, feel free to please join the LinkedIn. It's a good way to see what's happening out there. So you can find us pretty easily that way.
And hopefully that's what we're going to do is continue to strengthen this culture of information sharing and the sense of community that we all have around protecting the North American electric grid.
Paul Ciampoli
Great. Well, yeah, just picking up on the engagement topic also just want to mention briefly the eisac.com is the website address for you guys and also wanted to take the opportunity to mention that APPA offers physical and cybersecurity resources to its members, which can be found on APPA's website.
So, Michael, thanks again so much for taking time to speak with us today.
Michael Ball
You bet. It was my pleasure today, and thank you very much for the time, and I appreciate all of the support.
Paul Ciampoli
Thanks for listening to this episode of Public Power Now, which is produced by Julio Guerrero, graphic and digital designer at APPA.
I'm Paul Ciampoli, and we'll be back with more from the world of Public Power next week.
